Windows 10 1803 the best yet...

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
I wonder what percentage of users who experience problems actually report those to Microsoft?
 

Tony1044

Prolific Poster
I wonder what percentage of users who experience problems actually report those to Microsoft?

You've hit the nail on the head there. Most people I know wouldn't even think to call Microsoft for help. It's online (assuming access) and/or friends and family.

I'm currently in the middle of a major upgrade project for a large national retailer. One of the platforms I've had to design a replacement for is c15 years old.

It is out of support and all the applications on it are also unsupported for the most part.

However, I was told the replacement could be pushed back a year because "no one logs any calls on it, so it must be fine"....

Completely missing the points that a) it's far from fine* and b) that users have actually got the message that there's nothing that can be done to fix the old stuff so why bother complaining?

*This individual claiming it was fine never used it and had a shiny new laptop with brand new applications and Office 365 etc...amazing how fast they did a U-turn when I threatened to make them go on the legacy system. :)
 

mdwh

Enthusiast
I don't think it matters what percentage calls, as they're still comparing like with like (I.e., that number is smaller than previous rollouts). You'd have to argue that for some reason that percentage fell.

And this does include online support requests, not just phone calls. It's also includes to the OEMs, not just to Microsoft. Plus the post references automated methods of feedback too.

Tony1044: Microsoft are continually upgrading Windows (much to the criticism of people who think it should remain 7 or XP or whatever forever), so I don't feel it's fair to compare them to the idea of abandoning software. Whilst one can't assume people are happy, at the same time software developers have to prioritise and allocate resources, as well as measure effectiveness of that software and deployment methods.

If these metrics can't be used, then what should they use to determine which rollout methods are better?
 

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
I don't think it matters what percentage calls, as they're still comparing like with like (I.e., that number is smaller than previous rollouts). You'd have to argue that for some reason that percentage fell.

My comment about wondering 'what percentage of users who experience problems actually report those to Microsoft' is important. It's not a Microsoft percentage I'm talking about, it's the absolute number of users with problems who bother to tell Microsoft. I have no data of course, and there is no way for Microsoft to know either, but outside the Insider Program and their dedicated support, I'd bet that very few users tell Microsoft anything.

And this does include online support requests, not just phone calls. It's also includes to the OEMs, not just to Microsoft. Plus the post references automated methods of feedback too.

Agreed, but I'm still left wondering how representative the sample size (of users reporting problems) is to the total population (of users who have problems). What that report is saying is that Microsoft, quite sensibly, are using AI to deliver 1803 to those customers who will have the fewest issues first, so one would expect there to be fewer problems being reported with 1803 in any case....

Tony1044: Microsoft are continually upgrading Windows (much to the criticism of people who think it should remain 7 or XP or whatever forever), so I don't feel it's fair to compare them to the idea of abandoning software. Whilst one can't assume people are happy, at the same time software developers have to prioritise and allocate resources, as well as measure effectiveness of that software and deployment methods.

If these metrics can't be used, then what should they use to determine which rollout methods are better?

I can't answer for Tony1004 of course, but I think the point he was making is that users are not good at reporting issues, this is something I have had a lot of experience with myself during my long career in IT.

I'm not knocking Windows 10, and I don't believe Tony1044 is either, but you have to be very careful with statistics. For example if you have a userbase of 100 people and 10 of them have issues, that's 10 percent of your userbase with problems. If I have a userbase of a million can I claim I'm better than you because I only have 8% of users with problems? Remember my 8% is 80,000 people!

I've said this on here before but it illustrates a nice problem with statistics....I used to live in a village where there was a man with only one arm. That meant that I had more than the average number of arms for people in my village.....
 

Oussebon

Multiverse Poster
MS decided it was time for my Dell Inspiron to have 1803. Didn't tell me, and then started downloading it over my mobile data, which was nice. I did have it down as a metered connection, but fine, it was only a short while before I got to the office so switched to wifi and I had data to spare that month. Asked for a restart. The laptop was on battery as I don't have a charger at the office. Then said a firmware update was required for 1803, and immediately proceeded to try to install that. s the laptop restarted, it didn't attempt to install the firmware update due to being on battery. Got home later, plugged the sucker in, charged the battery fully and tried again. The update failed repeatedly and after iirc 3 attempts it gave up and just started delivering normal updates for 1709.

As an aside, my Desktop has decided that when there are updates it wants me to take care of, I should get the "Updates are available" popup in the middle of the screen, which dims the rest of the screen and prevents any control until one clicks the button to go to updates. It does this while running games, which is really hilarious in fast-paced shooters, I gotta tell you. There are ofc no options to disable the popup, at least in 1703. I'm upgrading to 1709 to see if there any any options for this, and because it's way past due in fairness. But mostly because the updates it was telling me to install for 1703 downloaded and then repeatedly failed to install.. over and over.. then tried to redownload and got stuck on 0% again and again. I'd paused my own downloads to let it do this, so am 2 hours behind where I want to be downloading a game that's on for a free weekend at the moment.

It's probably the first time I've genuinely (and I grant you, irrationally) missed Windows 7, when I'd run the updates myself regularly and they basically just worked. Putting aside the rose-tinted spectacles, my only real complaints with updates on Windows 10 are the insane aggression that MS use to market the updates (full screen lock during games, really ?!?!) and that updates seem to get betatested on users.

Needless to say, I've not reported any of this to MS as the above already cost me a couple of hours of my free time over today and another recent Saturday...
 
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Frank100

Rising Star
Hi,

I've been a customer of Microsoft Operating systems since 95 version A and I've been working with computers since before then. In that time I've never once contacted Microsoft when I wasn't happy and I've never sought their help resolving an issue, I've always looked elsewhere and found what I needed.

One of my bugbears with 10 is that one update, (I don't remember which), deleted all the stuff I pinned to my Start menu, all the tiles I turned off and deleted, it put them all back on and turned them on and then changed some of my default programs back to the Microsoft ones. It took me nearly 15 minutes to undo everything once I realised what had happened.

As a person I like to have choice and Windows 10 seems to be a bit more dictatorial than previous versions.

Frank100
 

Tony1044

Prolific Poster
I don't think it matters what percentage calls, as they're still comparing like with like (I.e., that number is smaller than previous rollouts). You'd have to argue that for some reason that percentage fell.

And this does include online support requests, not just phone calls. It's also includes to the OEMs, not just to Microsoft. Plus the post references automated methods of feedback too.

Tony1044: Microsoft are continually upgrading Windows (much to the criticism of people who think it should remain 7 or XP or whatever forever), so I don't feel it's fair to compare them to the idea of abandoning software. Whilst one can't assume people are happy, at the same time software developers have to prioritise and allocate resources, as well as measure effectiveness of that software and deployment methods.

If these metrics can't be used, then what should they use to determine which rollout methods are better?

I'm missing something... where did I compare MS to anything?

I said that people rarely contact MS directly - and that even included people like me who architect solutions based on their software (and have worked for them) - and are smart enough to stop complaining when they know an issue cannot be fixed...but the lack of complaints isn't the same as no issues.
 

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
I belong to a sailing forum which also, like this one, has a 'general discussion' forum. Over the years I really have lost count of the number of threads on there from non-techie PC users complaining first about Vista, then Windows 8, and now Windows 10.

In most cases the problems being ranted about (and they're nearly always a rant) look likely to be caused by user missoperation or poor management, but it's always Windows that gets the blame of course.

Most of the current Windows 10 threads seem to be related to the automatic upgrade process, typical posts contain things like 'Windows forced an unwanted update on me and now my screen size is all wrong, my printer doesn't work, and my Internet speed is terrible. I'm going back to Windows 7!'. A very significant number try a Linux distro and find it's fine for what they need.

Although nobody has specifically said so, it's pretty clear that none of these posters reported their problems to Microsoft. I know this because they are such basic users that they wouldn't know how, nor what to report as the problem, and they certainly wouldn't be capable of following even the most basic instructions to help them. I used to offer advice, and in the worst cases it was usually 'start again with a clean install' and the users would say 'how?'. The minute you start trying to explain the media creation tool and burning a DVD or USB stick they glaze over and give up.

And this is just one group of non-techie basic Windows users, there must be hundreds of other specialist fora with a 'general discussion' forum containing basic user rants about Windows, and none of these problems ever gets near to being reported to Microsoft either.

The only users Microsoft hear from are those technically competent enough to understand that a problem they have really is a Windows problem and who are also interested enough to tell Microsoft about it - and skilled enough to perform any diagnostics that Microsoft might require.

The link that Tony1044 posted is Microsoft congratulating themselves on the in-place upgrade to 1803 causing fewer issues. The real truth, as revealed in the huge number of posts on the sailing forum I use, is that it's causing all sorts of unreported issues for a great many people. The sample that Microsoft are using to make that judgement doesn't begin to represent the real population, it's just bad statistics ('there are lies, damned lies, and statistics').

IMO attempting to in-place upgrade an operating system that's been running for at least 6 months is a mistake, it's bound to cause issues for many users and especially those whose systems have not been managed wisely or configured properly, or those which have had random bits of software or hardware installed and uninstalled, and especially those which have had registry cleaners and/or tune-up tools run on them.
 
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Oussebon

Multiverse Poster
Just let my partner's PC upgrade to 1803*. It stopped Wake On Lan working as I suspected it would.

I eventually persuaded it to not just reinstall the latest LAN drivers MS thought were good for it, but older drivers from 2015 by Intel off the Asus site that actually let it wake on lan, and ofc disabled fast startup. And now it works again, which iirc is what I had to do with 1709.

I must say though, I came close to introducing 1803 to my good friend Mr Pistol Whippington. Going up and down the (basically lethal) stairs in our house repeatedly to see whether the steam link will successfully wake the system or not isn't the highlight of the 6-monthly upgrade cycle.

The sooner all games move to Vulkan and we can use Linux, the better...

* - and before anyone asks what I mean by "let", I didn't have updates disabled.. it's just we have a normal internet connection instead of a really fast one, so it never got the chance to download its fat self in one go before. And Win 10 updates being what they are, they often reset the download progress whenever the PC is restarted. So it was the first time the PC could be left on in one go long enough for the thing to download :/
 
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ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
I'm not sure that your requirement to climb your (lethal?) stairs can be laid at the 1803 update door. You could try reporting the stair-climbing issue via the feedback hub I suppose....

[rollinglaugh]
 

Oussebon

Multiverse Poster
Yes, it's not MS's fault that people should want to use wake on lan on devices elsewhere in the house. How on earth could they take that use case into account when deciding whether or not to break network drivers again. :p

It may even count as user error these days not to have a portable spare PC (in addition to the other PCs in the house) that can be used to search for solutions / download drivers for a device broken by forced updates.

Honestly, entitled damn users.

Maybe MS should provide the mandatory updates with a warning. You know, "while this is installing, please pop out to the shops to buy another device so that once we've finished breaking your main PC you have something convenient to troubleshoot it on" :) Though ofc, new systems always, always start downloading feature updates as soon as you get them home, so they'd break instantly too (like Vitt's system here, or the tablet I returned last Christmas as an immediate update broke the network drivers there too actually...) But it would let MS sell more copies of Windows. And reinvest the profit in improving the user experience. Giggity.

As for the stairs - they are pretty bad in fairness, steep, narrow, with no rail, so you have to hold the steps in front of you at face level as you go up. And bend down as you go so as not to crack your head. Coming down you hold onto a protruding piece of wood and sort of bend backwards. Think like the steps/ladders on ship, but far less safe despite the house not moving...
 
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SpyderTracks

We love you Ukraine
As for the stairs - they are pretty bad in fairness, steep, narrow, with no rail, so you have to hold the steps in front of you at face level as you go up. And bend down as you go so as not to crack your head. Coming down you hold onto a protruding piece of wood and sort of bend backwards. Think like the steps/ladders on ship, but far less safe despite the house not moving...

Your house doesn’t move??? I’d send it back, that’s just weird.
 

Oussebon

Multiverse Poster
If I owned it, I would ;) As a tenant, I need to just accept that the house doesn't move as intended.
 

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
Your house doesn’t move??? I’d send it back, that’s just weird.

If I owned it, I would ;) As a tenant, I need to just accept that the house doesn't move as intended.

You're quite right, Microsoft really should consider end users living in non-moving houses on several floors with steep companionway steps to get up and down. It's just not good enough for them to think everyone lives in a one-floor apartment and, horror of horrors, has more than one Windows device - who'd ever do that? :)

BTW. Boats and ships don't move. The sea underneath them moves and the boats stay put. Trust me on that. You'll be trying to tell me next that those big white flappy sunshades that we haul up the mast can make it move! :boat:
 

Oussebon

Multiverse Poster
But seriously - forced upgrades breaking systems made with mainstream hardware is damn tedious and the sooner Linux is a viable alternative for our uses the better :)
 

Tony1044

Prolific Poster
But seriously - forced upgrades breaking systems made with mainstream hardware is damn tedious and the sooner Linux is a viable alternative for our uses the better :)

Which parts make it non-viable? Is virtualisation not an option if you need to keep _some_ Windows around?
 

Oussebon

Multiverse Poster
Most of the games library unfortunately, and needing every drop of performanceRecent announcements concerning Steam and Linux are interesting but we're not there yet
 
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