Windows 10 1809 out

Oussebon

Multiverse Poster
On the one hand, i don't believe that end-users should be able to defer updates.
Automatic updates aren't a new Win 10 thing of course, and many people ran with that in Windows 7. What Windows 10 brings is the loss of choice about it.

As a lowly end-user I'd rather retain that choice, but I can see the arguments both ways.

What really isn't acceptable is forced and no-warning feature upgrades. Even if MS get their act together and avoid massacring people's data in the future, with the best will and skill in the world, feature upgrades will periodically cause issues e.g. hits to games performance on certain configurations that need to be patched, maybe software compatibility issues, or at least a need to sweep and reinstall GPU drivers to a more current version.

And for those of us not on fibre internet, the upgrades can take a couple of hours to download rendering home internet unusable for work or entertainment.

On my never-gonna-happen wishlist is a notification in Windows Update saying "We will roll out X feature update to you within the next month - pick a date and time". It's still forced, but at least I'd get time to batten down the hatches, and some control over when I lose access to my home internet. e.g. I could tell it to download overnight on a Friday so I can spend Saturday and Sunday checking it out it, instead of finding problems on a work day.
 
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ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
Microsoft are now advising customers who have downloaded the 1809 ISO not to install it;

If you have manually downloaded the Windows 10 October 2018 Update installation media, please don’t install it and wait until new media is available.

Source: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4464619/windows-10-update-history.

Based on this advice I've decided to play safe and I'll be restoring my latest disk image of 1803 tonight. This isn't going to be good news for Microsoft.....
 
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Tony1044

Prolific Poster
@Ubuysa: Glad I only did it on VM but I don't think you need to worry about it deleting items post-install: from what I am reading, it's during the upgrade that it manages to delete things.

@Oussebon: I totally agree. Being able to defer the installation for a few days would harm no one for the most part. Microsoft could still perhaps keep a setting in place that forces serious patches down immediately on release but still defer the rebooting/applying of them - perhaps a warning along the lines of having downloaded it and that you now have x shutdowns/reboots (displaying and counting down each time) until it is force-installed.

But...I doubt it will ever happen as you say. Even with SCCM you don't get the change to defer much - it tends to be a warning that it will be applied in 4 hours, like it or not.
 

Tony1044

Prolific Poster
And Microsoft don't exactly help by making it ever less clear what each patch is actually doing. How can you make an informed decision or narrow things down when troubleshooting?
 

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
@Ubuysa: Glad I only did it on VM but I don't think you need to worry about it deleting items post-install: from what I am reading, it's during the upgrade that it manages to delete things.

That was my thinking too but since MS are now saying to not install it I decided to play safe. It was an easy restore of the last (1803) disk image in any case.
 

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
It looks like the issue has been identified, it seems it was related to Known Folder Redirection (KFR) which is where users have 'moved' the Windows user files (Documents, Downloads, Pictures, etc.) to a different location (as I do). Full details are at https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2018/10/09/updated-version-of-windows-10-october-2018-update-released-to-windows-insiders/.

Microsoft are apparently allowing the dust to settle before re-issuing 1809. There was an update for existing 1809 users released on Tuesday (KB 4464330) which will presumably be contained in the re-issued 1809 upgrade.
 
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Tony1044

Prolific Poster
It looks like the issue has been identified, it seems it was related to Known Folder Redirection (KFR) which is where users have 'moved' the Windows user files (Documents, Downloads, Pictures, etc.) to a different location (as I do). Full details are at https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2018/10/09/updated-version-of-windows-10-october-2018-update-released-to-windows-insiders/.

Microsoft are apparently allowing the dust to settle before re-issuing 1809. There was an update for existing 1809 users released on Tuesday (KB 4464330) which will presumably be contained in the re-issued 1809 upgrade.

My flabber is totally gasted by this. With all of the insider testers, MS are telling us that none of them had redirected folders when they did in-place updates??

More likely someone made a last-minute code change.
 

Rakk

The Awesome
Moderator
It looks like the issue has been identified, it seems it was related to Known Folder Redirection (KFR) which is where users have 'moved' the Windows user files (Documents, Downloads, Pictures, etc.) to a different location (as I do). Full details are at https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2018/10/09/updated-version-of-windows-10-october-2018-update-released-to-windows-insiders/.

I glad it wasn't updated on my PC! Cos yes I redirect my User folders

My flabber is totally gasted by this. With all of the insider testers, MS are telling us that none of them had redirected folders when they did in-place updates??

More likely someone made a last-minute code change.

Yeah, wouldn't be entirely surprising if it was a last-minute change.
 

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
My flabber is totally gasted by this. With all of the insider testers, MS are telling us that none of them had redirected folders when they did in-place updates??

More likely someone made a last-minute code change.

Given the ease with which one can become an 'insider' one must ask how thorough or systematic any testing really is. I do wonder whether a sizeable number of 'insiders' don't test at all, they just want to be first to get the latest version. It's the old 'infinite number of monkeys' myth again.....
 

Tony1044

Prolific Poster
Given the ease with which one can become an 'insider' one must ask how thorough or systematic any testing really is. I do wonder whether a sizeable number of 'insiders' don't test at all, they just want to be first to get the latest version. It's the old 'infinite number of monkeys' myth again.....

Whilst I do agree, what I am driving at here is that a substantial number of the testers will have simply done an in-place upgrade...so...it begs the question how a bug that deletes data got through :)

This wasn't one of the more esoteric bugs that required a rather odd set of circumstances to align.
 

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor

Dear Lord....

There seem to be two issues here, one related to KB4464330 (1809 only) and one related to KB4462919 (1803 and 1809), but both affecting only HP computers. One would have hoped that Microsoft and HP would have done some proper testing of their own?

FWIW I have KB4462919 installed with no problems - but my PC isn't an HP of course.....
 

Tony1044

Prolific Poster
Dear Lord....

There seem to be two issues here, one related to KB4464330 (1809 only) and one related to KB4462919 (1803 and 1809), but both affecting only HP computers. One would have hoped that Microsoft and HP would have done some proper testing of their own?

FWIW I have KB4462919 installed with no problems - but my PC isn't an HP of course.....

Following links about it, it seems that the HP keyboard driver might be to blame.

I suspect that this is the driver that actually adds in OSD / backlighting functionality rather than a customer USB driver.

When I was working for Microsoft, I can happily confirm that they had entire floors full of vendor-provided kit to do exactly this kind of testing. But that was around 10 years ago now. And it was in Belgium.

Vendors used to fall over themselves to get their kit into Microsoft and for their part, MS would guarantee that they'd test extensively on their top-tier hardware partners. Of course, that could make it difficult if you weren't a Dell/HP/IBM of the time.

I do wonder sometimes how much of the trouble we see is down to technical debt from 90's. I mean when you think about it, there's a very good chance that software written even for Windows 95 will still run. How many corners were cut back then to increase performance, given the hardware constraints, that now bite MS in the backside? In the project I'm currently involved with, 15 year old software is being installed onto Server 2016...I mean...
 

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
Following links about it, it seems that the HP keyboard driver might be to blame.

I suspect that this is the driver that actually adds in OSD / backlighting functionality rather than a customer USB driver.

Yes, that's what it looks like, but that in itself is curious - see below...

I do wonder sometimes how much of the trouble we see is down to technical debt from 90's. I mean when you think about it, there's a very good chance that software written even for Windows 95 will still run. How many corners were cut back then to increase performance, given the hardware constraints, that now bite MS in the backside? In the project I'm currently involved with, 15 year old software is being installed onto Server 2016...I mean...

Personally I think that most of the upgrade-in-place issues are caused by exactly the sort of legacy software you mention. I also suspect that in the past it was fairly common for third-party developers to use undocumented Windows features, so when Microsoft make changes to these features (as they can since they're undocumented) things break.

This is precisely why drivers in particular are now supposed to be signed by Microsoft, because a driver is kernel code. Both these updates talk about 'updates....to the Windows Kernel...' and it frankly staggers me that Microsoft could introduce kernel changes that break existing (and presumably signed) drivers. Keeping the kernel clean is of paramount importance, if only because the only way to resolve a kernel problem is usually via a BSOD, so you'd expect Microsoft themselves to at least confirm that all signed drivers function properly with any kernel updates?

Perhaps Microsoft are running too fast to maintain the 6-month upgrade cycle and they can't maintain the quality? I wonder whether we'll see a move towards a 12-month upgrade cycle soon to give them more development and testing time...?


Later Edit: I've been doing a bit more reading on this and it seems that the lost files issue was reported via the 'insiders' as early as three months ago, see https://twitter.com/WithinRafael/status/1048473218917363713/. I just did some searches on the feedback hub (I'm registered as an 'insider' too) and quickly found several reports on missing files from some months ago. It seems that Microsoft are relying on the numbers of 'up votes' to decide what issues need addressing....!
 
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Oussebon

Multiverse Poster
Later Edit: I've been doing a bit more reading on this and it seems that the lost files issue was reported via the 'insiders' as early as three months ago, see https://twitter.com/WithinRafael/sta...3218917363713/. I just did some searches on the feedback hub (I'm registered as an 'insider' too) and quickly found several reports on missing files from some months ago. It seems that Microsoft are relying on the numbers of 'up votes' to decide what issues need addressing....!
I think I mentioned / whinged about that earlier.

I glad it wasn't updated on my PC! Cos yes I redirect my User folders
If I've understood it, the issue was only where people redirected the folders but left files in the original folders. It was the original folders that were gotten rid of during the process, which was deliberate by MS as a fix for users who complained the redirect left old folders behind.

I expect a huge number of insiders and other users redirect some of the user folders, but almost all move the files. And those who don't and have files split over two locations might take more time to notice missing things?
 
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Tony1044

Prolific Poster
Oh get this though - Citrix (an enterprise software company) also now have dual channels for their software. By default you're on their 6 monthly upgrade cycle unless you decide to get on their LTSR (Long Term Service Release) which is stable and supported for 10 years. Only security and bugs are patched.

Given I'm 10 months into what is likely to be a 2 year refresh for this client of their Citrix estate...

I am sure this idea of 6 months between major updates is being driven by MS's cloud sales...I believe they're in the mindset that if they aren't seen to be updating continuously they will lose subscribers.

An OS, to me, should be transparent. I shouldn't notice it. It shouldn't do things that take my focus away from my day-to-day tasks.

I firmly agree with regular and in most cases mandatory security patching. I don't believe in pushing out an entire OS for the sake of it.
 

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
I think I mentioned / whinged about that earlier.

If I've understood it, the issue was only where people redirected the folders but left files in the original folders. It was the original folders that were gotten rid of during the process, which was deliberate by MS as a fix for users who complained the redirect left old folders behind.

I expect a huge number of insiders and other users redirect some of the user folders, but almost all move the files. And those who don't and have files split over two locations might take more time to notice missing things?

From reading this it would seem that the glitch affected those upgrading from the April 2018 version or older versions, but not those upgrading from earlier insider builds. Those insiders who have upgraded-in-place from insider build to insider build (which is probably most of them) apparently didn't see the issue.

If that's true then the whole ethos behind the insider programme as a test bed is flawed, not only because it's neither thorough nor systematic, but because it doesn't reflect the real world. I predict future issues similar to this one unless things change.....
 

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor

I have the original 1809 version clean installed on my PCS laptop so I just tried out the zip 'bug' and it's happening on mine too. To summarise; on 1803 if you use File Explorer to extract a zip file to a folder that already has the zip file contents in it you get the 'replace these files?' dialog. With 1809 you don't, it just replaces them.

The other two issues reported in that link are device specific so I can't test those. It's not encouraging though is it?
 

Tony1044

Prolific Poster
I have the original 1809 version clean installed on my PCS laptop so I just tried out the zip 'bug' and it's happening on mine too. To summarise; on 1803 if you use File Explorer to extract a zip file to a folder that already has the zip file contents in it you get the 'replace these files?' dialog. With 1809 you don't, it just replaces them.

The other two issues reported in that link are device specific so I can't test those. It's not encouraging though is it?

I was under the impression from the article that it doesn't replace them but also it doesn't prompt you?
 
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