Gaming laptop

[superpc]

Hi all.
I'm trying to figure out an acceptable configuration for a gaming laptop, but it seems I can't make a decision, due to to the many chassis available.
If anyone can give me a hand in pinpointing the target configuration, it would be greatly appreciated.
Laptop will be used for gaming (I'm an average user, not a hardcore gamer) and general use (browsing, running a linux virtual machine, stuff like that)
RTX GPU (or something that I could use for at least 2.5/3 years).
I'd like to have a decent battery that lasts at least 3-4 hours (when in general use mode not in gaming mode)
Laptop weight less than 2.5/2.7 Kg
When in gaming mode I could sometimes use an external monitor (likely a full 1080P or 1440P). 17.3 laptop monitor is a plus but not needed (15.6 is OK for me)
Fast SSD disk preferred (500GB should be enough)
At least 16GB dual channel, but 32GB could be useful
I'd prefer not to cope with heavy tweaking with software to keep temp and termal throttle at bay. I can spend time for the initial configuration, though.
Budget: 1400-2000 Euro

Thanks for your help!

 

[superpc]

Just to give an idea of what I've done so far on the configurator:

PCSPECIALIST - Top Spec Custom PCs & Laptops Built to Order

Manufacturer of performance custom computers and laptops. Customise your ideal gaming PC or laptop using our advanced configurator.

www.pcspecialist.co.uk

PCSPECIALIST - Top Spec Custom PCs & Laptops Built to Order

Manufacturer of performance custom computers and laptops. Customise your ideal gaming PC or laptop using our advanced configurator.

www.pcspecialist.co.uk

PCSPECIALIST - Top Spec Custom PCs & Laptops Built to Order

Manufacturer of performance custom computers and laptops. Customise your ideal gaming PC or laptop using our advanced configurator.

www.pcspecialist.co.uk

 

[barlew]

I am not sure about the latest version of I7's but if they are anything like the previous generation stay well clear they run ridiculously hot (even if they are designed to ).

Definitely go for Ryzen.

 

[Ambassador Spock]

I am not sure about the latest version of I7's but if they are anything like the previous generation stay well clear they run ridiculously hot (even if they are designed to ).

Definitely go for Ryzen.

I have an i7-10875H in my 17" Defiance and I'm having no thermal issues at all (other than the aluminum chassis itself getting quite warm when gaming)

 

[barlew]

I have an i7-10875H in my 17" Defiance and I'm having no thermal issues at all (other than the aluminum chassis itself getting quite warm when gaming)

That's good news then they must have fixed the thermal dramas.

 

[superpc]

I have an i7-10875H in my 17" Defiance and I'm having no thermal issues at all (other than the aluminum chassis itself getting quite warm when gaming)

Hi.
Thanks for your reply!
Did you put a 2070 MAX-Q in your Defiance? What about gaming performance, are you satisfied?

 

[jimbotymbo]

I am not sure about the latest version of I7's but if they are anything like the previous generation stay well clear they run ridiculously hot (even if they are designed to ).

Definitely go for Ryzen.

I agree they are better and cheaper - but there are plenty of other considerations than CPU, especially since the Ryzen options are relatively limited! And the point about heat isn't quite accurate - almost every Ryzen laptop tested in the real world that I've seen runs at similar heat levels to the Intels. Look at the temps you get from the Asus laptops with it in, for example: some of them crack 100 under load and my (undervolted) Intel Vyper only rarely breaches 85, despite sharing the heatsink with a much more powerful GPU.

Great post here by Bob of All Trades explains it: *** removed link as for competitor product ***

In any case, if you are gaming, then consider whether the CPU tradeoff is worth it to get the more powerful GPUs in the Intel chassis. If you are content with the 2060, which I imagine should see you through 2-3 years of 1080p gaming, then I agree that the Ryzen-powered Optimus is a good bet. If you want to really increase power and longevity, then the Vyper with the 2070 Max-p (or even the Super) is probably your choice - just because I would argue that the 2070 Max-Q in the defiance isn't really worth the price bump from the 2060. Consider also if you want to hook your laptop up to a 1440p screen - you'll probably want the 2070 Super in that case.

In terms of battery, the Optimus has the lowest capacity, but the Ryzen is notoriously power efficient so that should balance out a bit. The Vyper 17 has by far the biggest battery - double the Optimus - but there are plenty of people (myself included) who have had to optimise various Vyper models to stop the dGPU firing and denting the battery significantly. But if you can spend an hour or so sorting that out, that will have the best life. Would imagine all of them should meet your 3-4 hr mark on sensible, non-gaming settings, but haven't seen any detailed reviews of the Ryzen Optimus to verify.

On your configs, a quick glance suggested they looked sensible. A few points:

• 
  
• Anyone will tell you not to bother with 32GB RAM just for gaming, especially for the next 2-3 years! You mention that in your initial post so just putting that out there.
• The Evo is a great drive but you may find 500GB a bit tight?
• Definitely get at least silver warranty for only a fiver more.
• Buy yourself a Windows 10 key to install yourself and trim another £100 off the price! In any case, you definitely don't need Pro - the features are really not worth it for a non-organisational user.

But ultimately, with your budget you should comfortably be able to get something to meet your uses.

My suggestion is:

Optimus with Ryzen for price and if you don't need the very highest GPU performance. It should still be good for high-end 1080p for at least a couple of years and IMO is a bargain (if they'd had the Ryzen configuration at the time I ordered I would likely have gone for this and used the money I saved towards upgrading sooner);

Vyper for battery and power, if you're willing to use your full budget to put the 2070 Super in (and even the Max-P 2070 is definitely a step up from the Max-Q, which will still be very good but the value isn't there for me over the 2060). Would advise an undervolt to keep temps at a decent level if you get the Super.

Defiance if you decide you're put off by some of the quirks of the Vyper which have been knocking around. Or it has a better battery than the Vyper if you drop to 15.6". And the advantage of the Max-Q of course is that you'll expect lower temps without undervolting.

FWIW I have a 15.6" Vyper and am very happy with it.

 

[barlew]

I agree they are better and cheaper - but there are plenty of other considerations than CPU, especially since the Ryzen options are relatively limited! And the point about heat isn't quite accurate - almost every Ryzen laptop tested in the real world that I've seen runs at similar heat levels to the Intels. Look at the temps you get from the Asus laptops with it in, for example: some of them crack 100 under load and my (undervolted) Intel Vyper only rarely breaches 85, despite sharing the heatsink with a much more powerful GPU.

Great post here by Bob of All Trades explains it: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/tongfang-gk5nr-o-gk7np-r-ryzen-4000-mobile.832819/

In any case, if you are gaming, then consider whether the CPU tradeoff is worth it to get the more powerful GPUs in the Intel chassis. If you are content with the 2060, which I imagine should see you through 2-3 years of 1080p gaming, then I agree that the Ryzen-powered Optimus is a good bet. If you want to really increase power and longevity, then the Vyper with the 2070 Max-p (or even the Super) is probably your choice - just because I would argue that the 2070 Max-Q in the defiance isn't really worth the price bump from the 2060. Consider also if you want to hook your laptop up to a 1440p screen - you'll probably want the 2070 Super in that case.

In terms of battery, the Optimus has the lowest capacity, but the Ryzen is notoriously power efficient so that should balance out a bit. The Vyper 17 has by far the biggest battery - double the Optimus - but there are plenty of people (myself included) who have had to optimise various Vyper models to stop the dGPU firing and denting the battery significantly. But if you can spend an hour or so sorting that out, that will have the best life. Would imagine all of them should meet your 3-4 hr mark on sensible, non-gaming settings, but haven't seen any detailed reviews of the Ryzen Optimus to verify.

On your configs, a quick glance suggested they looked sensible. A few points:

• 
  
• Anyone will tell you not to bother with 32GB RAM just for gaming, especially for the next 2-3 years! You mention that in your initial post so just putting that out there.
• The Evo is a great drive but you may find 500GB a bit tight?
• Definitely get at least silver warranty for only a fiver more.
• Buy yourself a Windows 10 key to install yourself and trim another £100 off the price! In any case, you definitely don't need Pro - the features are really not worth it for a non-organisational user.

But ultimately, with your budget you should comfortably be able to get something to meet your uses.

My suggestion is:

Optimus with Ryzen for price and if you don't need the very highest GPU performance. It should still be good for high-end 1080p for at least a couple of years and IMO is a bargain (if they'd had the Ryzen configuration at the time I ordered I would likely have gone for this and used the money I saved towards upgrading sooner);

Vyper for battery and power, if you're willing to use your full budget to put the 2070 Super in (and even the Max-P 2070 is definitely a step up from the Max-Q, which will still be very good but the value isn't there for me over the 2060). Would advise an undervolt to keep temps at a decent level if you get the Super.

Defiance if you decide you're put off by some of the quirks of the Vyper which have been knocking around. Or it has a better battery than the Vyper if you drop to 15.6". And the advantage of the Max-Q of course is that you'll expect lower temps without undervolting.

FWIW I have a 15.6" Vyper and am very happy with it.

Great post mate. I can only speak for the Vortex IX as i have never used the Vyper but under load even with an undervolt my I7 regularly sits in the high 80's low 90's which is apparently normal. Before the undervolt its high 90's all the way which is also apparently normal.

It would be interesting to see published testing on the thermal comparison between I7's and their Ryzen counterparts as anecdotally i only ever seem to see people complaining about the Intel's.

Whilst the post you linked to is interesting and a good argument is made for me it doesn't stack up with what i personally see on forums.

 

[SpyderTracks]

Great post mate. I can only speak for the Vortex IX as i have never used the Vyper but under load even with an undervolt my I7 regularly sits in the high 80's low 90's which is apparently normal. Before the undervolt its high 90's all the way which is also apparently normal.

It would be interesting to see published testing on the thermal comparison between I7's and their Ryzen counterparts as anecdotally i only ever seem to see people complaining about the Intel's.

Whilst the post you linked to is interesting and a good argument is made for me it doesn't stack up with what i personally see on forums.

If a Ryzen chassis is properly configured they’re about 10c cooler roughly than an intel chassis. Totally different temps wise

 

[barlew]

If a Ryzen chassis is properly configured they’re about 10c cooler roughly than an intel chassis. Totally different temps wise

That was my impression which is why i am surprised to hear different.

 

[jimbotymbo]

I accept that you would expect that if you were purely comparing CPUs, and perhaps even ceteris paribus in those cases where there was nothing else bottlenecking performance. But that doesn't change the fact that you can only go off real-world performance - and there are a number of bottlenecks in modern laptops which mean those fabled drops haven't yet been evidenced, that I've seen.

I think, frankly, there are still relatively few laptops out there with the 4k series in them to do a straight comparison, still, hence the "in theory" improvement is still talked about on forums as a panacea, when the reality is yet to match it, that I have seen. And Barlew - that is also part of why you will have seen far more Intel complaints than Ryzen!

In terms of comparisons, from PCS, there is only the Nova - which is a thick DTR which you would expect to have strong cooling, and runs the desktop rather than mobile chips in any case - and the Optimus, which I am yet to see any reviews for as it is new, so that's difficult to prove.

In the rest of the world, there's the Asus Zephyrus G14 and G15, and TUF A15 that I am aware of so far. Sure there are a few others I've not seen. And there's little evidence so far that, under load, they run that much cooler.

I won't link to reviews of competitors as I'm aware that that breaks the forum's rules, but a quick skim shows the G14 doesn't excel:

"The CPU routinely hits temperatures as high as 100-105 degrees Celsius, sometimes spiking to 112 degrees Celsius."

"We ran Sid Meier’s Civilization VI: Gathering Storm for just 15 minutes and noticed that the CPU temperature topped out at 97C. In fact, most games and heavy sustained CPU applications will put the CPU temperature of the G14 over 95C." from the first two reviews I found.

The A15

"The CPU runs especially hot with games on this notebook, averaging 90-95 degrees on Turbo in the more demanding titles. The GPU, on the other hand, averaged about 75-80 degrees on Turbo in the various titles we’ve tested, which are OK temperatures for an overclocked RTX 2060."

The G15:

"The cooling module seems alright for the hardware on this laptop, with three heatpipes and two fans, but the CPU averages temperatures of 90-95 degrees in most games, with the GPU averaging 78-83 degrees on the Turbo profile"

And remember, none of these share a heatsink with anything above an RTX 2060, as there are no 2070 or above Ryzen laptops yet. I didn't cherry-pick, either - those were just the first one or two reviews for each which gave details. It is fair to note that those with lower-powered cards, e.g. 1660 Ti, did see an improvement over Intel. But mid-tier gaming isn't where the issue really matters, if we're honest.

In any case, I am not an expert, so happy to defer to those who are, but I'm judging based on real-world hardware analysis I've seen. I also accept that these could just be poorly configured laptops. The fact, remains, though, until I see a laptop with the Ryzen in which beats Intel in temperatures, as well as performance and price (which I agree it already does), I will remain sceptical that the "Ryzen destroys Intel on temperatures" is a basis to make a laptop purchasing decision on.

 

[jimbotymbo]

And sorry for hijacking the thread, SuperPC!

 

[SpyderTracks]

I think, frankly, there are still relatively few laptops out there with the 4k series in them to do a straight comparison, still, hence the "in theory" improvement is still talked about on forums as a panacea, when the reality is yet to match it, that I have seen.

What do you mean? There are about 30 models atm. They all run substantially cooler than intel as they’re a completely different architecture and tdp.

And with regards to performance, this is based off 3rd party reviews of which there are hundreds.

 

[jimbotymbo]

I won't link to reviews of competitors as I'm aware that that breaks the forum's rules, but a quick skim shows the G14 doesn't excel:

"The CPU routinely hits temperatures as high as 100-105 degrees Celsius, sometimes spiking to 112 degrees Celsius."

I accept that you would expect that if you were purely comparing CPUs, and perhaps even ceteris paribus in those cases where there was nothing else bottlenecking performance. But that doesn't change the fact that you can only go off real-world performance - and there are a number of bottlenecks in modern laptops which mean those fabled drops haven't yet been evidenced, that I've seen.

I think, frankly, there are still relatively few laptops out there with the 4k series in them to do a straight comparison, still, hence the "in theory" improvement is still talked about on forums as a panacea, when the reality is yet to match it, that I have seen.
[/QUOTE]

What do you mean? There are about 30 models atm.

Fair enough - I might be behind the times! Those were the ones I could find when I looked. Happy to be proven wrong if the evidence is there. I was thinking specifically about high-end gaming laptops.

 

[SpyderTracks]

Fair enough - I might be behind the times! Those were the ones I could find when I looked. Happy to be proven wrong if the evidence is there. I was thinking specifically about high-end gaming laptops.

You’re going off very old data. In every single 3rd party review AMD 4000 at any level ansolutely destroys intel both in thermal performance and benchmarks on games and multithreaded workloads.

There are a couple of badly designed chassis, one from dell and one from ASUS where there is really poor ventilation design, but other than that, there’s just no contest.

Intel illegally paid off OEMs so that they won’t put anything over an RTX2060 in an AMD chassis. That’s only for the 2070 super and up though so only really valid until the end of the year, that’s IF the injunction against Intel for competition fixing isn’t won before that date.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to by “bottlenecks”, don’t really understand what that refers to.

 

[jimbotymbo]

You’re going off very old data. In every single 3rd party review AMD 4000 at any level ansolutely destroys intel both in thermal performance and benchmarks on games and multithreaded workloads.

There are a couple of badly designed chassis, one from dell and one from ASUS where there is really poor ventilation design, but other than that, there’s just no contest.

Intel illegally paid off OEMs so that they won’t put anything over an RTX2060 in an AMD chassis. That’s only for the 2070 super and up though so only really valid until the end of the year, that’s IF the injunction against Intel for competition fixing isn’t won before that date.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to by “bottlenecks”, don’t really understand what that refers to.

Happy to defer to your knowledge. I agree with you about performance; afraid I've not seen the evidence on heat that you refer to but will take your word (and perhaps do a Google later for my own education). I would be interested to know how many of those showing improvements are running a 2060 Max-P.

The point about bottlenecks was about chassis design/heatsinks shared with GPUs - so the CPU might perform better, but be restricted by poor design elsewhere in the laptop, as we have seen with the models you cite above. And the GPU point was less a dig at AMD, and more that we're yet to see whether putting it next to graphics cards with large power draws really does result in lower-temperature gaming in the real world. It sounds like it would, but again I will remain sceptical until the proof is there.

In any case, I have taken this thread off topic, for which I apologise. It's about buying the laptops from PCS, which exist now, and this is a bit of a side point. I think the point remains that buying a laptop has to be right for your use-case, and so immediately purchasing one just because it has a Ryzen in may not be right for the buyer!

 

[Ambassador Spock]

Hi.
Thanks for your reply!
Did you put a 2070 MAX-Q in your Defiance? What about gaming performance, are you satisfied?

Yes, I have the 2070 Max-Q in mine. I've been very happy with performance, but I don't do anything to intense outside of VR (the most I push it is two instances of Eve Online and Starcraft II at the same time). I haven't tried it in VR yet, but I was planning on setting it up this weekend.

 

[superpc]

And sorry for hijacking the thread, SuperPC!

No problem at all, mate.
This thread explained a lot about CPU and available options, very useful to me!
At the end of the day, I made up my mind and opted for a Defiance VII.
I am wary of Vyper chassis (several complaints about that) and Optimus seems to me a desktop replacement. I need a battery lasting at least 3 hours under normal conditions (no gaming, just developing/studying)
Let you know how it goes, laptop should be delivered in 10 days or so.