The worst part of owning a high-end PC....

[ubuysa]

....is having to fix a friend's low-end laptop.

A very good friend has an oldish HP laptop that's running (if you can call it that) Windows 10. She brought it round yesterday complaining that her 'Windows has reached end of service' and can't be upgraded. Be kind, she really doesn't know anything about computers at all.

It was running 1909 and was desperately trying to upgrade itself to 20H2, but because it was taking so long she'd assumed that it had broken and powered it off (via the 5 second On switch) a few times to no avail (of course).

It runs a 1.6 GHz Centrino CPU, has 4GB of RAM and a 500GB 5400RPM HDD, so it's clearly of pensionable age and needs glasses, a hearing aid and a walking frame.....

My plan was to clean the component store with dism, clean the windows system files with sfc, and then let it do the upgrade in place to 20H2. Yes, I could have clean installed 21H1 for her but you've seen the spec, would you want to take the time to do that? Me neither.....

The dism and sfc cleanup took two hours (most of that was the dism cleanup, the component store was corrupted).

The Windows Update install of 20H2 up to the point where you do the restart took nearly 8 hours to get to 82% - I went to bed at that point and left it running.

This morning from initiating the restart to being able to login took 3 hours.

So not counting the dism and sfc cleanup, the upgrade in place from 1909 to 20H2 took 12 hours...! Twelve whole HOURS. 😖

Using it is like walking through treacle, even though I've disabled every service and startup item I know she doesn't need.

And yes, I've got Linux Mint on a USB stick and everything runs faster on that laptop running Linux from the USB stick that it does running Windows from the HDD. I'm going to try and persuade her to let me move it to Linux later today, but she's a real computerphobe and may not want the hassle of the change of UI.

Wish me luck, because if she stays with Windows I'll be doing this all again in 12 months.....

 

[steaky360]

Man of infinite patience! Nice work and good deed done!

Not all hero's wear capes!

 

[Scott]

Been there a few times. My least favourite operation is when they hand me an eMMC 64GB netbook in desperate need of an update. I'm yet to figure out how to manage it and I have had to resort to a full install each time.

I have close friends and acquaintances .... as we all do.... and they are treated very different. If they rock up with Fred Flintstones notebook I weigh up how much I value our friendship vs the amount of time that it'll take to carry out the actions they are looking for (Including the ones they haven't thought of). If they get a pass.... I go for it.... if they don't, I let them know that their laptop is out with my capabilities and they should probably buy a new one.

Additionally, when offering advice on purchases..... if they follow my advice they get lifetime support.... if they don't, they get "told you so" first time they turn up with it

 

[rouchie]

....is having to fix a friend's low-end laptop.

More like .........Is the wait for it to arrive!

 

[Deleted member 41971]

So not counting the dism and sfc cleanup, the upgrade in place from 1909 to 20H2 took 12 hours...! Twelve whole HOURS.

she may need a new PC,

Least she had 1909, I Know people who still have win xp

 

[CMP01]

I've had to do this for my mum so damn often over the years.

Firstly, she goes and buys some older spec laptop of some guy she knows off Freecycle groups or something that fixes up and flogs 'em.
Alright, it's a Core 2 Duo maybe or a newer non Core Intel... I dunno anymore tbh... and 4Gb RAM, maybe 6... often old and mismatched, she's had at least 3 in the last decade and they're never newer.

"Get a brand new one" I say, "like one that has a warranty and tech support included..."

Well, lol to that. Anyway... what would be the point of a new one, she surmises... you only get bilked and have to upgrade and...
Maybe, but it doesn't help that she buys tat or the way she looks after the thing(s)
They live next to her kitchen sink, constantly getting drowned in errant and uncontrollable paperwork and nested on by cats. So much dust. And hair.
I like cats too but seriously...

Anyway, sssshh but truth is I know nothing of software and such. When I was at school we didn't have IT even. It was long enough ago that we had BBC Micro's (or yeah, maybe the school was cheap but I left in '93 so who knows?) and a semi mythical Archimedes (with some Domesday machine project thing on that the IT teacher, a seriously ancient dude that probably helped Babbage make his machine, was well proud of)
I only know what little I know from... well, gaming... and the fact that an old buddy I lived with once who was an IT trainee and temp teacher got drunk one night, told me I'd need to learn in the modern age, taught me how to email and then crashed out swearing "If I'm never on my PC use it to learn stuff, good luck"

Didn't get much further than Yahoo Messenger tbh. Best entertainment you could have for free back then.

So I muddle through. Or Google stuff, really handy is Google.
But mum tells me I know so much (I really don't) and of course I, the guy who doesn't even know basic kb shortcuts or how to use all those nifty oft work related goodies that come with Windows, am the only one that can help.
Help to make her screen the right way around again after the cats did come dancing on her kb. Or bring back all the stuff that was "Right there only a minute ago... all my important correspondence" (only more Freecycle contacts, ads and... look, she has enough hoarding ok)
To which I answer, "What. Did. You. Do... No, seriously some idea of what you did or were intending would really help...

Now, mum and her bestie actually went on a basic computing course years back, yeah...
And no lie but they spent their time there rolling their eyes and making old ppl jokes... "That's called a mouse... where's the cat hahahaha?"

I also get told by her that she can't remember anything. Not ever at all. Not even if it would save so much hassle.
But she can remember the name, address, occupation, hobbies... everything that a passing association shouldn't bear up about one person she contacted on Freecycle once 5 or more years ago over some random item she didn't even need.

And the worst thing, now I live more than a few doors away (or even in the same village) is her calling me to tell me it's all gone south and ask what's wrong. Well...
Have you... tried turning it off and on again...?
"I'll have to bring it over to yours" she says, "you'll know what to do"

Anyway, that's me done. It's funny enough to hurt in a way but all the above is absolutely true.

 

[ubuysa]

I've had to do this for my mum so damn often over the years.

Firstly, she goes and buys some older spec laptop of some guy she knows off Freecycle groups or something that fixes up and flogs 'em.
Alright, it's a Core 2 Duo maybe or a newer non Core Intel... I dunno anymore tbh... and 4Gb RAM, maybe 6... often old and mismatched, she's had at least 3 in the last decade and they're never newer.

"Get a brand new one" I say, "like one that has a warranty and tech support included..."

Well, lol to that. Anyway... what would be the point of a new one, she surmises... you only get bilked and have to upgrade and...
Maybe, but it doesn't help that she buys tat or the way she looks after the thing(s)
They live next to her kitchen sink, constantly getting drowned in errant and uncontrollable paperwork and nested on by cats. So much dust. And hair.
I like cats too but seriously...

Anyway, sssshh but truth is I know nothing of software and such. When I was at school we didn't have IT even. It was long enough ago that we had BBC Micro's (or yeah, maybe the school was cheap but I left in '93 so who knows?) and a semi mythical Archimedes (with some Domesday machine project thing on that the IT teacher, a seriously ancient dude that probably helped Babbage make his machine, was well proud of)
I only know what little I know from... well, gaming... and the fact that an old buddy I lived with once who was an IT trainee and temp teacher got drunk one night, told me I'd need to learn in the modern age, taught me how to email and then crashed out swearing "If I'm never on my PC use it to learn stuff, good luck"

Didn't get much further than Yahoo Messenger tbh. Best entertainment you could have for free back then.

So I muddle through. Or Google stuff, really handy is Google.
But mum tells me I know so much (I really don't) and of course I, the guy who doesn't even know basic kb shortcuts or how to use all those nifty oft work related goodies that come with Windows, am the only one that can help.
Help to make her screen the right way around again after the cats did come dancing on her kb. Or bring back all the stuff that was "Right there only a minute ago... all my important correspondence" (only more Freecycle contacts, ads and... look, she has enough hoarding ok)
To which I answer, "What. Did. You. Do... No, seriously some idea of what you did or were intending would really help...

Now, mum and her bestie actually went on a basic computing course years back, yeah...
And no lie but they spent their time there rolling their eyes and making old ppl jokes... "That's called a mouse... where's the cat hahahaha?"

I also get told by her that she can't remember anything. Not ever at all. Not even if it would save so much hassle.
But she can remember the name, address, occupation, hobbies... everything that a passing association shouldn't bear up about one person she contacted on Freecycle once 5 or more years ago over some random item she didn't even need.

And the worst thing, now I live more than a few doors away (or even in the same village) is her calling me to tell me it's all gone south and ask what's wrong. Well...
Have you... tried turning it off and on again...?
"I'll have to bring it over to yours" she says, "you'll know what to do"

Anyway, that's me done. It's funny enough to hurt in a way but all the above is absolutely true.

Some people are just not techy. My wife is one. She's smart, very smart actually, and has superb people skills (she was a call centre manager for a very large insurance company). She can calm down the most irate person and could probably sell an ice making machine to Eskimos (sorry, Inuit) but she does don't do tech.

I have spent hours carefully showing her how to do stuff on the PC (and I used to be an IT trainer), I've made her notes and crib sheets. But no. She's fine with basic stuff, she can email, search the web, print stuff (even replace the paper in the printer!) but when faced with anything out of the ordinary, like an unexpected warning or informational message, and she's not clue what to do. TBH she's terrified of doing the wrong thing and 'breaking' my PC. I've lost count of the times I've told her that she can't break it, and even if she did I can rebuild it, but still no.

She's just not a techy person, lots of people aren't. My friend with the ancient laptop isn't either. BTW, she's agreed to go down the Linux route which will be fun, because I can just about spell Linux......

 

[slimbob]

I am a non techy person. I wish I was better but I have to work hard to pick it up it seems my mind is just not wired that way unfortunately. I have to read things very slowly and re read lots of times and make notes before the penny starts to drop. That is why I like the forum so much it is literally a life saver for me I would be lost without it. Thanks to everyone who helps me especially when I had to upgrade from Widows 7! I find tech fascinating and love computers I just wish I was more techy. But compared to 5 years ago I have really improved.

 

[ubuysa]

I am a non techy person. I wish I was better but I have to work hard to pick it up it seems my mind is just not wired that way unfortunately. I have to read things very slowly and re read lots of times and make notes before the penny starts to drop. That is why I like the forum so much it is literally a life saver for me I would be lost without it. Thanks to everyone who helps me especially when I had to upgrade from Widows 7! I find tech fascinating and love computers I just wish I was more techy. But compared to 5 years ago I have really improved.

I've taught both techy and non-techy people. You might think a large mainframe data centre is no place for a non-techy person but you do get them. When doing practical exercises the differences were noticeable:

Non-techy people want a procedure. They want to know what they have to do to achieve the goal and they will learn to do that very well. But if you move the goalposts a little so that their procedure doesn't quite work they are often stuck.

Techy people want to be left alone. They will wander off in all sorts of directions and will often take longer to complete the exercise, but they learn a lot more and are much more flexible when you move the goalposts a little.

The best advice I can give (and did give) to non-techy people is to try and forget about a procedure. Instead create an overview of how you're going to get from here to there, visualise the general process you expect to go through. Then take things step by step and try to understand what is happening at each step. As you go see how each step fits into the general process you visualised and always keep the bigger picture in mind. Don't think 'I press this key next' but instead look at all options at each step and think about what is the next most logical step forward.

With a procedure you're really standing too close to be able see the bigger picture and the whole will always remain a mystery. Instead take a step back, look at the whole and see the bigger picture. Parts of it may be hazy but have confidence that when you get there you'll calmly and thoroughly consider every path forward (or even backward if necessary) and you'll then make the most logical choice.

The most important advice I can ever give is this; before you take a step forward always be sure to leave yourself a way to step back again.

 

[slimbob]

I've taught both techy and non-techy people. You might think a large mainframe data centre is no place for a non-techy person but you do get them. When doing practical exercises the differences were noticeable:

Non-techy people want a procedure. They want to know what they have to do to achieve the goal and they will learn to do that very well. But if you move the goalposts a little so that their procedure doesn't quite work they are often stuck.

Techy people want to be left alone. They will wander off in all sorts of directions and will often take longer to complete the exercise, but they learn a lot more and are much more flexible when you move the goalposts a little.

The best advice I can give (and did give) to non-techy people is to try and forget about a procedure. Instead create an overview of how you're going to get from here to there, visualise the general process you expect to go through. Then take things step by step and try to understand what is happening at each step. As you go see how each step fits into the general process you visualised and always keep the bigger picture in mind. Don't think 'I press this key next' but instead look at all options at each step and think about what is the next most logical step forward.

With a procedure you're really standing too close to be able see the bigger picture and the whole will always remain a mystery. Instead take a step back, look at the whole and see the bigger picture. Parts of it may be hazy but have confidence that when you get there you'll calmly and thoroughly consider every path forward (or even backward if necessary) and you'll then make the most logical choice.

The most important advice I can ever give is this; before you take a step forward always be sure to leave yourself a way to step back again.

Just seen your great reply UBUYSA I am reading it now, thanks very much indeed I will reply when I have digested it properly, I just wanted you to know I just seen your reply now as you posted it yesterday morning. Really interesting, thank you. Bob

 

[slimbob]

I've taught both techy and non-techy people. You might think a large mainframe data centre is no place for a non-techy person but you do get them. When doing practical exercises the differences were noticeable:

Non-techy people want a procedure. They want to know what they have to do to achieve the goal and they will learn to do that very well. But if you move the goalposts a little so that their procedure doesn't quite work they are often stuck.

Techy people want to be left alone. They will wander off in all sorts of directions and will often take longer to complete the exercise, but they learn a lot more and are much more flexible when you move the goalposts a little.

The best advice I can give (and did give) to non-techy people is to try and forget about a procedure. Instead create an overview of how you're going to get from here to there, visualise the general process you expect to go through. Then take things step by step and try to understand what is happening at each step. As you go see how each step fits into the general process you visualised and always keep the bigger picture in mind. Don't think 'I press this key next' but instead look at all options at each step and think about what is the next most logical step forward.

With a procedure you're really standing too close to be able see the bigger picture and the whole will always remain a mystery. Instead take a step back, look at the whole and see the bigger picture. Parts of it may be hazy but have confidence that when you get there you'll calmly and thoroughly consider every path forward (or even backward if necessary) and you'll then make the most logical choice.

The most important advice I can ever give is this; before you take a step forward always be sure to leave yourself a way to step back again.

Hi UBUYSA,

O.K. I have properly read your reply and kept it (copy/paste), it is not a surprise to hear that you teach this stuff to be honest.

You say: Non-techy people want a procedure. They want to know what they have to do to achieve the goal and they will learn to do that very well. But if you move the goalposts a little so that their procedure doesn't quite work they are often stuck.

I was laughing reading this as this is me to a tee! How did you know. I have a word doc manual I constantly build when I find things out (a lot from this forum I must add) so I have procedures to follow if I get stuck. In the past when I I used my P.C I knew how to use the software I needed to use but in terms of the machine running the software I wasn’t interested and found it daunting. If I got stuck in the past the solution was my techy friend or one of those remote access services.

You say: Techy people want to be left alone. They will wander off in all sorts of directions and will often take longer to complete the exercise, but they learn a lot more and are much more flexible when you move the goalposts a little.

Yes, makes perfect sense. I can cook quite well as long as I have a cookbook! As long as I follow the recipe, I am home dry as the result is pretty much assured. If I collect more recipes, I may fool myself into thinking I am becoming a better cook. However, I fully appreciate I am not, I am just collecting recipes and carefully following instructions. If I am out of a particular ingredient or can only use the hob as the oven is broken, I will be running round the kitchen like a headless chicken.

Whereas a good cook would be flexible and adaptable and able to cook a great meal with whatever ingredients you gave them in a strange kitchen they have not used before because they have a good overall knowledge of cookery. They will be making the recipes I follow! I must become very curious of the topic and explore for myself like the techy people you mention in the large mainframe data centre.

I have become more curious and have made leaps and bounds over the last year! If I told myself 5 years ago that I was clean installing windows, partitioned my HDD, got a back-up plan in place with Macrium Reflect and taking my P.C apart to clean it I would be shocked. Now I fully appreciate all that is child’s play to a techy person but for me it is really great progress!!! If I ever get stuck rather that outsource, I use google, You Tube and PCS forum to learn how to fix it myself as best I can and learn as I go. But I also appreciate I am still outsourcing in a sense to be honest.

You say: The best advice I can give (and did give) to non-techy people is to try and forget about a procedure. Instead create an overview of how you're going to get from here to there, visualise the general process you expect to go through. Then take things step by step and try to understand what is happening at each step. As you go see how each step fits into the general process you visualised and always keep the bigger picture in mind. Don't think 'I press this key next' but instead look at all options at each step and think about what is the next most logical step forward.

With a procedure you're really standing too close to be able see the bigger picture and the whole will always remain a mystery. Instead take a step back, look at the whole and see the bigger picture. Parts of it may be hazy but have confidence that when you get there you'll calmly and thoroughly consider every path forward (or even backward if necessary) and you'll then make the most logical choice.

Yes this is wise advice and I will try to wean myself of my procedures and try my best to step back and see the bigger picture and then follow steps to get to my goal. I think I need to keep getting more and more curious and exploring.

You say: The most important advice I can ever give is this; before you take a step forward always be sure to leave yourself a way to step back again.

Thanks very much for that final piece of great advice!
All the very best .
Bob

 

[Deleted member 41971]

Techy people want to be left alone. They will wander off in all sorts of directions and will often take longer to complete the exercise, but they learn a lot more and are much more flexible when you move the goalposts a little.

technically I could be classed as techy as I normally want everyone to leave me alone and to do things myself, even if i go off on a tangent, i once took a laptop to a pub because I wanted a drink but did not want to finish my work.