Advice on Workstation anyone?

[Voidprojects]

Time for an update - and I thought it was time to try to get something better suited to my needs than my aging AMD Phenom based system.

I need it primarily for running Archicad - so 2D / 3D modelling, but also Cinerender. Second Life and other virtual world use, but no other gaming use, and potential video work (Premier Pro). Otherwise general office software. Currently a single Benq HD monitor, but that may get upgraded or replaced by a pair of screens.

Following looked like a good starting point, but open to suggestions - its based on part research, part simple prejudice. Costs £1320 - be nice to cut thatif anyting isi superfluous, or I could go further with a good reason.

Case
COOLERMASTER SILENCIO 452 QUIET MID TOWER CASE
Processor (CPU)
Intel® Core™ i7 Quad Core Processor i7-7700k (4.2GHz) 8MB Cache (Special Offer)
Motherboard
ASUS® PRIME Z270-K: ATX, LGA1151, USB 3.1, SATA 6GBs
Memory (RAM)
16GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 3000MHz (2 x 8GB)
Graphics Card
PNY QUADRO P600 - 2GB GDDR5, 384 CUDA Cores - 4 x mDP
1st Hard Disk
1TB SEAGATE FIRECUDA 3.5" SSHD - UP TO 5X FASTER THAN HDD!
1st M.2 SSD Drive
256GB SAMSUNG PM961 M.2, PCIe NVMe (up to 2800MB/R, 1100MB/W)
DVD/BLU-RAY Drive
16x BLU-RAY WRITER DRIVE, 16x DVD ±R/±RW & SOFTWARE
Power Supply
CORSAIR 350W VS SERIES™ VS-350 POWER SUPPLY
Power Cable
1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Processor Cooling
Corsair H55 Hydro Cooler w/ PCS Liquid Series Ultra Quiet Fans
Thermal Paste
EK-TIM ECTOTHERM THERMAL COMPOUND
Sound Card
ONBOARD 8 CHANNEL (7.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Wireless/Wired Networking
ONBOARD GIGABIT LAN (2 PORTS ON WS MOTHERBOARDS)
USB Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 4 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
Genuine Windows 10 Home 64 Bit - inc. Single Licence [KK3-00002]
Operating System Language
United Kingdom - English Language
Windows Recovery Media
Windows 10 Multi-Language Recovery Image - Unlimited Downloads from Online Account
Office Software
NO OFFICE SOFTWARE
Anti-Virus
NO ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE
Browser
Microsoft® Edge (Windows 10 Only)
Warranty
3 Year Standard Warranty (1 Month Collect & Return, 1 Year Parts, 3 Year Labour)
Delivery
STANDARD INSURED DELIVERY TO UK MAINLAND (MON-FRI)
Build Time
Standard Build - Approximately 8 to 10 working days

 

[Oussebon]

You should go for the it 8700(k). It's the successor to the 7700k and is both faster and has 50% more cores.
It's under the Z370 configurator: https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/computers/intel-z370-pc/

Although Quadro GPUs are get called Workstation or Professional graphics cards, they're noyl really useful for certain, very specific applications. In many cases, consumer Geforce cards (ones with GTX in the name) will actually offer vastly more performance per £.

Graphisoft actually say to avoid some older Quadros, and have published benchmarks of Archicad showing Geforce and Quadro cards:
https://helpcenter.graphisoft.com/t...-for-archicad-21/#Video_Cards_tested_for_BIMx
A £500 GTX 1080 is about equivalent to a £6000-7000 Quadro P100.

Something like a GTX 1060 would pretty much demolish a really cheap quadro like a P600 in performance.

Likewise, Premiere Pro is more than happy with Geforce cards.

I wouldn't put this kind of hardware in a Silencio either as they're not ideal for temps versus things like the Fractal Define S, R5/R6, which are very good quality and quiet cases.

You'll probably want a larger PSU for future upgrades

You could drop the SSHD to an HDD if your main drive is a fast SSD anyway

Case
FRACTAL DEFINE R5 BLACK QUIET MID-TOWER CASE
Processor (CPU)
Intel® Core™ i7 Six Core Processor i7-8700 (3.2GHz) 12MB Cache
--FREE Warhammer: Vermintide 2 & XMorph Defense w/ select Intel CPUs!
Motherboard
ASUS® PRIME Z370-P: ATX, LGA1151, USB 3.1, SATA 6GBs
Memory (RAM)
16GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 3000MHz (2 x 8GB)
Graphics Card
6GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1060 - DVI, HDMI, 3 x DP - GeForce GTX VR Ready!
1[SUP]st[/SUP] Hard Disk
1TB SEAGATE BARRACUDA SATA-III 3.5" HDD, 6GB/s, 7200RPM, 32MB CACHE
1[SUP]st[/SUP] M.2 SSD Drive
256GB SAMSUNG PM961 M.2, PCIe NVMe (up to 2800MB/R, 1100MB/W)
DVD/BLU-RAY Drive
16x BLU-RAY WRITER DRIVE, 16x DVD ±R/±RW & SOFTWARE
Power Supply
CORSAIR 550W VS SERIES™ VS-550 POWER SUPPLY
Power Cable
1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Processor Cooling
CoolerMaster Hyper 212X (120mm) Fan CPU Cooler
Thermal Paste
STANDARD THERMAL PASTE FOR SUFFICIENT COOLING
Sound Card
ONBOARD 6 CHANNEL (5.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Wireless/Wired Networking
10/100/1000 GIGABIT LAN PORT (Wi-Fi NOT INCLUDED)
USB Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 2 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
Genuine Windows 10 Home 64 Bit - inc. Single Licence [KK3-00003]
Operating System Language
United Kingdom - English Language
Windows Recovery Media
Windows 10 Multi-Language Recovery Image - Unlimited Downloads from Online Account
Office Software
FREE 30 Day Trial of Microsoft® Office® 365
Anti-Virus
BullGuard™ Internet Security - Free 90 Day License inc. Gamer Mode
Browser
Microsoft® Edge (Windows 10 Only)
Warranty
3 Year Standard Warranty (1 Month Collect & Return, 1 Year Parts, 3 Year Labour)
Delivery
STANDARD INSURED DELIVERY TO UK MAINLAND (MON-FRI)
Build Time
Standard Build - Approximately 8 to 10 working days
Quantity
1

Price £1,389.00 including VAT and delivery

Unique URL to re-configure : https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-configurations/intel-z370-pc/2vg58edKz9/

Most of the extra cost comes from the better case here.

For an indication of the 8700(k) versus the 7700k, see:

(the 8700 non-k is only 100MHz slower on boost clocks than the 8700k, and the performance is virtually identical: https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/2048?vs=2047 )

 

[Voidprojects]

Thank you - lots here to think on. I was thinking that the P600 is a pretty new card, and Graphisoft usually seem pretty keen to push them; also I had thought the 7700k seemed to come up more on the configurators than the 8700k, and that the higher clock speed might outweigh the extra cores (I have 6 cores at the moment with little visible value). And I just used to have a Coolermaster case that I liked; I must admit I thought this was just a box until the last few hours or so. And I was originally thinking the Barracuda drive - but the Firecuda only added about £20, and HD bottlenecks are what is finally killing my current machine.

 

[Oussebon]

and that the higher clock speed might outweigh the extra cores

What I'm saying is that the i7 8700(k) is faster or equally fast, as well as having more cores.

The base clock looks lower, but the boost clocks actually make it faster.
The 8700 non-k boosts to 4.6GHz on 1 core, 4.5 on 2, 4.4 on 3, and 4.3 across all 4-6.
The 7700k boosts to 4.5GHz on 1 core, and maybe 4.4GHz on 2-4.

The 4.2GHz vs 3.2GHz base clocks certainly make it look like the 7700k is faster, but that's completely irrelevant as under load they will use the boost clocks and can maintain those clocks indefinitely.

Also, the 8700k has a larger L3 cache. And it has 2 more cores.

The reason your 6 core CPU is not very good, is because its cores are weak and have much lower IPC than modern Intel or AMD alternatives. But each of the 8700's cores are on the same level as the 7700k.

In fact, the 6700k, 7700k, and 8700k are pretty much the same architecture with only extremely minimal or even zero IPC gains per generation. The 7700k is a 6700k that clocks higher out of the box. The 8700k is a 7700k with more cores, slightly faster single core boost, and a bigger cache. It's not like, for example, the old question of an i7 6700k versus an i7 5820k where they were different architectures, and the 5820k clocked slower too.

A 6 core CPU being weaker than a contemporary quad core for some tasks is not an issue any more since October and Intel's release of it's 8th Gen.

It would be a real mistake to buy the i7 7700k over the 8700k for just about anything.

and HD bottlenecks are what is finally killing my current machine.

That's what the SSD is for. You have Windows, programs, and project files on the SSD. The HDD is for mass storage where storage speed is pretty irrelevant. Anything you need to work on, you move to the SSD. If you were going to spend £20 more on storage for an SSHD I'd tell you to spend £50 more instead and buy a 512gb WD Black SSD for double the SSD storage.

If storage bottleneck are a problem, the solution is more SSD rather than buying an SSHD.

I was thinking that the P600 is a pretty new card, and Graphisoft usually seem pretty keen to push them

I'm afraid this has nothing to do with anything. Both it and the cards like the GTX 1060 are Pascal cards. They were released at different times, but that's not a case of newer = better. It's a case of newer = less powerful = Nvidia flogs their high end, expensive models first, then starts selling the cheaper ones they have a lower margin per unit on.

That's why the GTX 1080 came out before the GTX 1060. And the GTX 1060 only came out when and how it did to combat AMD's RX 480.

The actual software developer's website is telling you, with very explicit graphs, that a Geforce card is far, far better performance.

And I just used to have a Coolermaster case that I liked; I must admit I thought this was just a box until the last few hours or so.

If you're not after a "quiet" case and are happy with just a regular case you can save £50 easily. E.g. by going for the InWIN G7, the Corsair 200R, NZXT S340, Fractal Focus G, Game Max Falcon, etc etc. They're all good budget cases.

 

[Voidprojects]

You'd already persuaded me on the CPU (that table was pretty clear) but PCSpecialist didn't offer the 8700 starting the build from a Workstation. And your reasoning on the SSD and case (and cooling) also got me.

It just seems a bit odd that Nvidia sell Quadro cards if they aren't as good - surely not everyone can be persuaded by the argument of reliability or them being 'reassuringly expensive'? But the tables again are pretty persuasive (even if they are on a webpage where Graphisoft recommend Quadro), and most benchmark sites seem to rate the GTX well above the P600 card and equal to or better than the P1000. I've also now spent a while on Graphisoft forums, where a reassuring number of people seem to be very happy with GTX cards, so I think I am persuaded all round.
Thanks for your help.

 

[SlimCini]

I think it's safe to say that, for many amateur or part time users, you could get as functional a workstation from the non-workstation part of the configurator as you could the workstation part. My understanding of it is that the workstation area is really for pros looking to drop £5k+ on a very niche machine.

 

[Oussebon]

You'd need to use a different configurator. "Workstation" is just a word, ultimately it's the same hardware whether you call it a Workstation or a Gaming PC or whatever.
You probably saw the link to the relevant configurator in my post above
There certainly are things you might get for a 'workstation' that you might not on a regular consumer of 'prosumer' PC, like EEC memory, but PCS don't actually offer that afaik.

Edit: Didn't see Slim's post when I started typing - they put it better than I do.

You're absolutely right that Quadro isn't a gimmick, there are clear use cases where they have an advantage in performance e.g. maybe scientific calculation where you need double precision computation (NB double precision doesn't mean twice as good at everything) But it doesn't seem to apply to your uses.

Abobe recommend Quadro for Premiere as far as I know. And you'd use Quadro type GPUs if you were making the next Avatar movie. But many people who video edit for a living e.g. youtube content creators use Geforce because they don't need the extra Quadro features and can't afford to spend 5 times as much to get the same performance as that offered by a consumer card.

There are other differences too for sure. If you're using a 10-bit display you need Quadro. If you don't know that you are using a 10 bit display, you're probably not.

 

[Voidprojects]

Thanks again all - I've reached the same conclusion, and yes, found the link to the configurator and looked through it again. Apart from adding in a card reader it looks like it should do me nicely. And PCS should be glad to know that the price looks pretty unbeatable too.