Skyrim Scaling Enemies?

[Deklore]

I guess i was one of the few that didnt really play Oblivion. The main reason was that the enemies scaled in difficulty with you no matter what armour/skill/weapons you had. It was something that put me off and i thought made the whole point of leveling up useless.

Just wondering if anyone has heard if this is the case for Skyrim? Been reading stuff on Skyrim, but cant seem to find any info on it.

 

[MeveM]

I doubt it'll change. Morrowind, Oblivion etc both had scaling. I don't think it's that bad, it'd be hard to determin what areas you can handle and which you can't, it wouldn't be as free without it, that said, the custom packs which I haven't tried, that stop the scaling has got loads of good feedback, so maybe it's more fun? Can't say but I doubt it'll be anything but the same in Skyrim.

Another reason to get it for PC , bet it'll only take a few weeks before big custom packs come out, and I'll give it 6 hours after launch before there is a nude custom pack and a Kasumi pack, always is, dirty beggers.

 

[Deklore]

I really dont see the appeal of scaling in games like that. To me it destroys any satisfaction and sense of achievement you had of beating an enemy when you know they will always be set to a certain difficulty level no matter how you leveled up.

Yeah i guess thats where the PC trounces consoles evey time (apart from the graphics) is the speed and variety of patches.

In the meantime i wont be getting Skyrim. Yes i know i'll be missing out on a great game, but BF3 is keeping me occupied at the moment so im happy

 

[MeveM]

BF3 is awesome, but the amount of hours I play games every day, I need something else then BF3, stopped playing WoW, waiting for SWTOR, so I NEED Skyrim .

As I said above, I think it's got it's good and bad bits with scaling. Unless you've got some for of indications to what areas are what difficulty, or mob indicators like in MMO's, then you might spend more time trying to find something you actually CAN kill.

 

[JSG10]

I really don't think scaling mobs is a reason not to get a game! Especially not games like the Elder Scrolls series, they are truly epic games and I've no doubt at all that Skyrim will be just as good.

The idea of scaling is that it creates a constant challenge rather than you over-levelling (Which happens in a LOT of RPGs) and blitzing through the later stage content. Whats the point in that? What you will find though is that you end up with a whole heap of new abilities and skills etc so the whole scaling issue, really isn't much of an issue at all.

 

[Deklore]

I take it you pumped many hours into Oblivion?

Personally i would prefer the game mechanics of Dark Souls (for the consoles) Basically you get your butt handed to you on a plate by most of the bosses until you level up enough to take them on. Then 1 by 1 they fall as you increase in power, kinda gives you a reason to lvl up.

I guess with scaling enemies it allows you to explore anywhere at anytime. But with scaling is there such a thing as an area being more difficult to another? if so does it just mean more enemies?

 

[Frenchy]

I really don't think scaling mobs is a reason not to get a game! Especially not games like the Elder Scrolls series, they are truly epic games and I've no doubt at all that Skyrim will be just as good.

The idea of scaling is that it creates a constant challenge rather than you over-levelling (Which happens in a LOT of RPGs) and blitzing through the later stage content. Whats the point in that? What you will find though is that you end up with a whole heap of new abilities and skills etc so the whole scaling issue, really isn't much of an issue at all.

Gotta agree there. I do think possibly a mix would be good but for the most part, its better to have enemies that scale with you. Take Final Fantasy, I love that series, but level up enough and the rest becomes boring because the enemies are now too easy. Kinda makes the leveling up pointless, after the initial "wow I can take down a Adamantortoise in 1 hit"

 

[JSG10]

Yeah exactly Frenchy.

And no Deklore thats not quite how it works. There will be areas harder than others that will always be higher than you, each area will probably have a level range much like on an MMO but will also scale appropriately to your progression. Does that make sense? :S

 

[DeadEyeDuk]

I have to say I wasnt a mahoosive fan of the Oblivion style scaling, but I more generally just never got into Oblivion (loved Morrowind, played it to death!). I do not remember NPC scaling in TSE3...was it there?

That said, still getting Skyrim (pre-ordered gift from my brother on Steam), because I love the series as a whole and know that any issues I had with Oblivion (probably stupid things that dont even exist in that game anymore...I got it on release, so perhaps judged it harshly) will likely be gone/irellevant and will have a blast

 

[Deklore]

Yeah exactly Frenchy.

And no Deklore thats not quite how it works. There will be areas harder than others that will always be higher than you, each area will probably have a level range much like on an MMO but will also scale appropriately to your progression. Does that make sense? :S

So no matter how much you level if you go to those particular areas then you will always be "underpowered"? I dont see the appeal to be honest.

If i have done all the work leveling or even grinding out levels i want to be rewarded with easy kills. Also when you go back to the starting areas, its a good indication of how powerful your character has become if you can 1-shot them. Scaling to me shows no sense of character level progression.
I mean doesnt it get frustrating if you were to take on a certain enemy at the start - get owned, then after 20hrs lof lvl later return to the same enemy and still get owned? Or is it not as simple as that?

I guess its just a difference of opinion and im open to be convinced scaling is good, but of the few RPGs ive played there is no scaling and they play fine for me.

 

[MeveM]

I really don't think scaling mobs is a reason not to get a game! Especially not games like the Elder Scrolls series, they are truly epic games and I've no doubt at all that Skyrim will be just as good.

The idea of scaling is that it creates a constant challenge rather than you over-levelling (Which happens in a LOT of RPGs) and blitzing through the later stage content. Whats the point in that? What you will find though is that you end up with a whole heap of new abilities and skills etc so the whole scaling issue, really isn't much of an issue at all.

This man speaks sence!

 

[MeveM]

So no matter how much you level if you go to those particular areas then you will always be "underpowered"? I dont see the appeal to be honest.

If i have done all the work leveling or even grinding out levels i want to be rewarded with easy kills. Also when you go back to the starting areas, its a good indication of how powerful your character has become if you can 1-shot them. Scaling to me shows no sense of character level progression.
I mean doesnt it get frustrating if you were to take on a certain enemy at the start - get owned, then after 20hrs lof lvl later return to the same enemy and still get owned? Or is it not as simple as that?

I guess its just a difference of opinion and im open to be convinced scaling is good, but of the few RPGs ive played there is no scaling and they play fine for me.

You will never be underpowered, you'll get a suitable challenge where it should be a challenge, but you'll also never run around with the possibility to ignore people. I remember some games (MMO's included) where you run around and this baddie that used to one shot you, now can't get through your armour, so you run around with 10 of them hitting you whilst you casually pick flowers.

It's made so you'll have a challenge where it should be a challenge.

Leveling will reward you in other ways.

A dragon will always be a challenge, a bandit will always remain easy/mediocre.
It wouldn't make sence for a human/elf/orc etc to be physically stronger then a dragon. It's a bit of realism. A dagger wielded by a begger can still take down the best gladiator in Romes history with a lucky hit. Unfortunately leveling isn't realistic in most games, you simply start absorbing damage? What? Why would a person who can cut off your arm not do the same because you've "leveled" up? Leveling up doesn't magically give you flesh that can't be cut.

 

[Frenchy]

not quite as simple as that. Better example of scaling would be Forza 4, yeah I know its racing but the career on that scales to how good you are as a driver. At the start AI will beat you because youre not very good, after a few races you start to get better and the AI also gets better to compensate, this means you always have an even race. Now the challenge in FM3 was that once you start upgrading your car the computer loses out. FM4 overcomes this by getting computer to upgrade their cars within a certain PI range (higher PI = better car). As well as this computers will have good and bad days meaning you could have a really hard race, or quite an easy race. You could have an AI miles ahead then suddenly make a mistake or take another computer out which brings you back into the game. This type of scaling means you face a challenge, you also see yourself improve and the game remains fun the entire time.

If I was to race forza until I had the best cars but they didnt upgrade with me, I would end up winning every race, which would get borign very quickly.

 

[Dayve]

They have said they toned down the level scaling because of the complaints people had with it in Oblivion. I agree, it was ridiculous. Common bandits and highwaymen armed fully in the most expensive golden armour with the most expensive weapons and items upon their persons because they've scaled to level 50 like you, when common bandits should be level 3 wearing tattered leather armour and wielding rusty iron swords. When I'm a level 75 hero those people ought to be running from me.

I can only play Oblivion now with Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul which removes level scaling completely and makes the game like it was in Morrowind, where there was barely any level scaling at all.

 

[Deklore]

Thanks guys for your explaination on how it works. Love your laymans explaination Frenchy - that made me understand how it works alot better.

Also if they have toned it down for Skyrim limited version of scaling would work for me. Either way all of a sudden Skyrim is looking like a very likely purchase

Now another problem has cropped up. I have limited gametime, so if i get Skyrim, then i will have to put down BF3 but i guess its a good problem to have

 

[MeveM]

not quite as simple as that. Better example of scaling would be Forza 4, yeah I know its racing but the career on that scales to how good you are as a driver. At the start AI will beat you because youre not very good, after a few races you start to get better and the AI also gets better to compensate, this means you always have an even race. Now the challenge in FM3 was that once you start upgrading your car the computer loses out. FM4 overcomes this by getting computer to upgrade their cars within a certain PI range (higher PI = better car). As well as this computers will have good and bad days meaning you could have a really hard race, or quite an easy race. You could have an AI miles ahead then suddenly make a mistake or take another computer out which brings you back into the game. This type of scaling means you face a challenge, you also see yourself improve and the game remains fun the entire time.

If I was to race forza until I had the best cars but they didnt upgrade with me, I would end up winning every race, which would get borign very quickly.

Good comparing I remember the racing games I've played in the past, even at the first race I've taken the lead and then each lap you get further, and further ahead, halfway through you're getting cars around you, but only because you're starting to overlap them. It's very boring, might as well not have any AI. And I'm not a racing game player like you Frenchy, I bet it'd be a lot worse for you, so I can see how good the AI scaling is in racing.

As for Skyrim, I think everything should scale, that includes wolves and bandits BUT, as Dayve said, we don't want to see highwaymen with golden fullplates. I wish they just scaled their stats so the bandits in rugged leather still look the part, yet are still able to hurt you because as I explained before, even a rugged highwayman in scruffs could cut someone in a plate, all it takes is a lucky blow, and they're easier to get in numbers, flanking etc.

It makes no sence what so ever that because you get better at wielding a sword, all the sudden your skin turns into dragon scales that cannot be penetrated.

What does fighting have anything to do with how much health a enemy hit does? The higher level you get, the more time you've spent in the game, the more time you've spent, the better you get as a player, so for example, if you use a shield, you should be able to block more hits, making your fighting easier. It shouldn't all be about stats IMO. Thats why scaling makes sence to me, infact I almost wish they removed leveling all together, and just let you gain moves, different blocks and retalitaions, different dodge movements etc, making you as a player have more strategies to use in order to make fighting better/easier.

 

[Deklore]

Good points and great idea johake. I would definately play a game with that type of game mechanic. The problem would be trying to convince a game developer to take that kind of idea on.

 

[Gorman]

The marrowind series never really grabbed me, i played through oblivion to a point where i got bored and left it.

What am i missing?

 

[Deklore]

The marrowind series never really grabbed me, i played through oblivion to a point where i got bored and left it.

What am i missing?

Perhaps its the setting? Have you played Fallout 3? isnt that a "similar" type game?

 

[Dayve]

Good comparing I remember the racing games I've played in the past, even at the first race I've taken the lead and then each lap you get further, and further ahead, halfway through you're getting cars around you, but only because you're starting to overlap them. It's very boring, might as well not have any AI. And I'm not a racing game player like you Frenchy, I bet it'd be a lot worse for you, so I can see how good the AI scaling is in racing.

As for Skyrim, I think everything should scale, that includes wolves and bandits BUT, as Dayve said, we don't want to see highwaymen with golden fullplates. I wish they just scaled their stats so the bandits in rugged leather still look the part, yet are still able to hurt you because as I explained before, even a rugged highwayman in scruffs could cut someone in a plate, all it takes is a lucky blow, and they're easier to get in numbers, flanking etc.

It makes no sence what so ever that because you get better at wielding a sword, all the sudden your skin turns into dragon scales that cannot be penetrated.

What does fighting have anything to do with how much health a enemy hit does? The higher level you get, the more time you've spent in the game, the more time you've spent, the better you get as a player, so for example, if you use a shield, you should be able to block more hits, making your fighting easier. It shouldn't all be about stats IMO. Thats why scaling makes sence to me, infact I almost wish they removed leveling all together, and just let you gain moves, different blocks and retalitaions, different dodge movements etc, making you as a player have more strategies to use in order to make fighting better/easier.

I don't think anything should scale. I like how it works in OOO (the mod for Oblivion I mentioned earlier), which is how it works in WoW as well. Certain areas have certain level bad guys. At the start of the game, you have no business wandering in to the HQ of the world's most well known and fearsome bandit group, smashing your way through 500 fearsome guards and then besting the fearsome boss for epic loot, all while level 1 and wearing a sack and weilding a chair leg for a weapon.